Dutch FT project

[J6G1Z]

Has it really been 4 years ?!?!? 

Way to keep plugging along. Bike looks great!

Hope the electrical issue is easy to diagnose.

J.

PS. I over-tightened the screws on my FT-CBR ignition switch & cracked the housing. It was very slight & I didn't notice at first. The bike would run fine & then just stall out without warning. It became progressively worse until I was able to see the crack. Replaced the ignition switch & all was well again.

[FT500R]

A bit over 4 years already! 
Of course the project lay dormand for quite a long time and I had to do everything without a decent workshop but still....

So far the electrical issue does not seem easy to diagnose.
When I turned on the ignition yesterday everything seemed to work as normal.
When I pushed the start button, power went out. I suspected a faulty fuse but none where bad.
Disconnected the battery.
I did a check on the starter solonoid wiring, disconnected and reconnected it.
Reconnected the battery.
Now when turning on ignition I do have power again. When pushing the starter button I only hear the solonoid clicking that I installed that turns of the lighting when starting. No other solonoids or starter motors are working.
I'm going to check that extra solonoid and see if there is power going through it or not.
Also going to bypass the ignition and I have a spare starter solonoid.
My fear is that I used too thin wiring throughout the loom...

Regards,
Paul

[J6G1Z]

Verify that battery is up to the task.

Many FT owners chase their tail over non-start issues due to a faulty/weak battery.

J.

[murdo]

And also check for bad earths and loose terminals.

[FT500R]

I still have these electrical gremlins that I just can't seem to figure out.
My whole electrical system will just turn on and off without any apparent reason.

I've made a short movie to illustrate.
https://youtu.be/pQlZ6E-UWeY

So the ignition switch is on, when I rock the bike back and forth the electrics start going ape shit.
Anyone any hints to what it could be?

[murdo]

You must have a loose connection somewhere, or a short to earth.

[FT500R]

Haven't posted in a long time and this was mainly because the bike wasn't running and I didn't have time to address it.

Spend some time on it the past few weeks and did find a couple of electrical issues.
The starter control unit seems to have died. I've connected the yellow black wire directly to the green red effectively bypassing the SCU. I don't see the purpose of that thing anyway...
Next to that I ran another ground wire directly from the battery negative and that seems to help a lot.
The starter motor spins now, all the relays work as intended but it seems like there is a (mechanical) problem between the starter motor and the pinion gear.
I think the starter motor bearing is so worn out that the motor doesn't engage with the Gear between the starter motor and the pinion gear.
I know this bearing is a weak spot so will try and source a replacement. Anyone know the correct type?
Does mean taking of the complete left engine cover to reach it though
Next to that I think my battery is dying on me.
After 2 or 3 start attempts it will not be able to get the motor to turn anymore. It doesn't slow down or anything but it just more or less shuts down.
I can still hear the relays clicking but the starter motor doesn't turn and the cockpit does a restart sequence as if I switched of the ignition. I think it does this because the battery cannot handle the required starting current anymore.

Anyone more thoughts on this?
What other than a worn bearing could cause the startmotor not to engage with the intermediate gear? (Start motor shaft looks ok, some small wear marks. When I do not have the pinion gear installed the startmotor does turn the intermediate gear but as soon as I install the pinion gear it doesn't anymore.)
And perhaps some tips for the battery check?

Regards,
Paul

[J6G1Z]

Paul,

Check out the Yahoo FT500 Ascot owners group. The admin there is real sharp on the FT starter system.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/honda-ascot/info

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/honda-ascot/files

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/honda-ascot/files/Starter%20Issues/

Good luck
J.

[FT500R]

Bike is still not running.
Still problems with the starter.
I think the starter control unit died. Anyone any idea how to bypass it or test it to see if it is broken?

[hellblom]

Hi!

my tip is to skip the starter control unit all together. Check my simplification of the electric system out in the thread here: https://advrider.com/f/threads/honda-ft-500-ascot-group.1420469/page-3

My electric system is now without both the SCU and the starter solenoid relay and the drawback is that I can start the bike with a gear in, which for me is not a big problem but perhaps for some.

Regards
Olle

[FT500R]

Thats very interesting.
Was looking to get rid of the SCU and the starter solonoid relay anyway so will dig into it.
I do have enough time on my hands due to the lockdown anyway

[FT500R]

oh btw, get all those people from that forum on here!
This forum works way better than that one and we could always do with more activity here.

I saw some people on that thread looking for a solution for the tacho cable hole on the cilinder head. There is actually an original honda part to block this hole. I think it is a XT or XL 500 part.
I've used it too.
I won't register for that forum just to tell people that but you can mention it to them.

[FT500R]

With the use of the info provided by Hellblom I've re-assessed my wiring loom.
I went from the already quite thinned down version to an even thinner one.
I could still make it even thinner by removing the lightgreen/red wire towards the fusebox and removing the 1 way diode but since this is all already wrapped in tape I'm just going to leave that for now.
The wiring diagram has already changed a whole lot from the standard one.

Hope to get some (quarantaine) time to actually change and test it over the coming days.

[FT500R]

Did all the modifications to the wiring harness today and they all seem to work so that is awesome.
The bike still won't start though, the electrical starter keeps wirring without engaging with the pinion but it does make a strange noise.
To further investigate I opened up the starter pinion cover to see what is going on there and if something is wrong with the solenoid as I couldn't hear it work.
I replaced the solenoid spring some years ago with the spring of a ballpoint and it looks like this spring wore out a bit. The return action of the little cog is not as fast as it should be. After adjusting it still moves slowly back to the rest position so maybe the actuator in the solenoid binds up.
Further inspection showed quite some wear on the pinion gear.
I also found a lot of play between the starter gears. Does anyone recognize this as normal?
I made a small movie to show how much play
https://youtu.be/ZNgOrX7_dO4

[hellblom]

Nice going on the electrics! It's fun to follow your progress, I am in the midst of tampering with my bike as well due to the lockdown. I am really interested in knowing more about the "plug" for the hole in the cylinder that the tacho leaves when you remove it. Do you have a good link for somewhere I can buy it? I live in Sweden, so a European site is preferable.

[hellblom]

I will try to get the people from the other forum here. The best forum so far for FT500 was the yahoo group which now sadly is closed.

[FT500R]

Nice going on the electrics! It's fun to follow your progress, I am in the midst of tampering with my bike as well due to the lockdown. I am really interested in knowing more about the "plug" for the hole in the cylinder that the tacho leaves when you remove it. Do you have a good link for somewhere I can buy it? I live in Sweden, so a European site is preferable.

I checked my old orders and I believe it's this part:
https://www.cmsnl.com/products/cap-head-cover_12316473000/#.XoWG5ogzbIU
only 3 euros and they deliver everywhere in the world.
It's number 2 on this diagram so it is actually meant to plug this hole:
https://www.cmsnl.com/honda-ft500-1982-c_model50099/partslist/0034.html#.XoWH34gzbIU
Might be worthwile to order some more parts with them because of the postal fees.

By the way if you are going to replace your exhaust studs. Order these, these are the correct length FT500 ones (XL500 ones are shorter)
https://www.cmsnl.com/search/?section=all&q=92900-060350B&tab=schematic

If any of you has the starter side of the FT500 open and could check for play on the starter gears that would be awesome!

[FT500R]

@Hellblom.
You can see the plug in this picture
The bolt above it is just to plug that bolt hole and doesn't have any other use.

[hellblom]

Thanks! I am really wondering though how this plug is attached to the bike, is it made of elastic rubber and is really squeezed into the hole? I wonder because I know there can be quite a lot of oil trying to leak out of that hole, I have a home made plug there now which leaks even though I tried my best to make it tight.

[FT500R]

@Hellblom.
It is a I think metal plug with rubber coating. You have to take of the valve cover to mount it in between the valve cover and the cilinder head.
You could also try to source a rubber plug that fits and than make a plate that attaches to the bolthole above to keep it in place.

I opened up the engine of my bike today and as always it is 1 step forward, 2 steps back..
First I had to open the complete left side of the engine to get to the starter gears that I suspected were damaged. Ofcourse this means draining the oil, loosening the left engine cover which of course ripped the gasket.
Then opening the cover in which the gears live. Of course ripping that gasket to..
Who ever designed this at Honda did not have easy maintenance of these gears in mind.

When I took out the gears at least it was instantly clear why there was so much play in the gear system..
There are 3 teeth that have sheared of the first gear and one on both the gears on the reduction gear. I checked the outgoing spline of the startermotor and it is still ok, 1 small mark but nothing serieus.

I started digging around in the engine and found all 3 missing teeth of the first gear. 1 came tumbling out of the oil drain plug, 1 was in the bottom of the left casing the last one found its way into the generator..

[FT500R]

As you can see some of the magnets of the generator are damaged.
I can probably grind the protruding pieces of metal down again and then hopefully it will be alright.

The wired part of the generator (guess its called the stator because this is not rotating?) is also damaged.
On one picture you can see the insulating material has been damaged, the windings still look alright.
On the second picture there is also clear damage on one or more of the 'heads'. Again I can probably grind the protruding pieces of metail down but I don't know if this will effect the functioning of the generator?

Anyone know if the surfaces need to be absolutely smooth or if, as long as the windings are intact, it will work?

I am looking for new starter gears now but it might be very difficult as all the breakers I am contacting have already sold exactly those parts (didn't know they were that prone to break)

[hellblom]

Hum, not so fun for you! Perhaps time to do the kickstart conversion?

Thanks for the links to the plug. I will purchase it along with some other good stuff to have. For me, I will start switching out the tank tomorrow, wish me luck!

[murdo]

Bad news about the starter gears. So long as the stator windings (wires) are not broken then just smooth up the metal bits and it should still work ok.

[FT500R]

@hellblom.
Thinking about doing the kickstart conversion. The gears that broke are FT500 specific and completely unobtainable.. Might be nice to install a kickstarter and be done with relying on these parts. Making a list of parts that I would need to do the conversion now as I cannot find a decent write up of a total conversion. Oh and good luck with the tank!

@Murdo.
I will test the stator wiring, although I fear the worst and also wouldn't want to ride around with a stator that is about to fail. So also looking at replacing it but again the stator is also a FT500 specific piece (apart from an obscure cb250 variant).

Really hope this doesn't sideline my project.
I at least want to make sure I refurbish this stator or get a new one and could even do with bumpstarting but would be best to get either a kickstart or the gears for the electrical starter. I've put so many effort in this bike it would just be such a shame to stop it now.

[scottly]

Nice going on the electrics! It's fun to follow your progress, I am in the midst of tampering with my bike as well due to the lockdown. I am really interested in knowing more about the "plug" for the hole in the cylinder that the tacho leaves when you remove it. Do you have a good link for somewhere I can buy it? I live in Sweden, so a European site is preferable.

I checked my old orders and I believe it's this part:
https://www.cmsnl.com/products/cap-head-cover_12316473000/#.XoWG5ogzbIU
only 3 euros and they deliver everywhere in the world.
It's number 2 on this diagram so it is actually meant to plug this hole:
https://www.cmsnl.com/honda-ft500-1982-c_model50099/partslist/0034.html#.XoWH34gzbIU
Might be worthwile to order some more parts with them because of the postal fees.

By the way if you are going to replace your exhaust studs. Order these, these are the correct length FT500 ones (XL500 ones are shorter)
https://www.cmsnl.com/search/?section=all&q=92900-060350B&tab=schematic

If any of you has the starter side of the FT500 open and could check for play on the starter gears that would be awesome!

I don't think that plug is for the tach? It looks like the plug for the compression release, which the FT doesn't have. I used the plug from an '82 XR500:
https://www.cmsnl.com/honda-xr500r-1982-c_model50091/plug-camshaft_12312428000/#.XodqP3JlC5g